top secret clearance lied at meps

You're not going to jail. The process of adjudication is known as the whole person concept, which takes into account the information you voluntarily submitted, the nature and seriousness of the information you presented, and the frequency of questionable conduct you may have engaged in. As the person acknowledges, providing honest information at MEPS perhaps would have required a waiver to enlist. Can you get a security clearance if you lied at MEPS? I have ADHD. This includes diligent screening and thorough investigation to ensure that potential troops are mission ready, trustworthy, and reliable. Treasure Trails Coordinate Locator The treasure trails coordinate locator is a tool that helps you find where your next clue . You can find out more about our use, change your default settings, and withdraw your consent at any time with effect for the future by visiting Cookies Settings, which can also be found in the footer of the site. I can't, for the life of me, imagine why he would tell you to lie about that. Wayne the Dept of Energy has C,L,and Q clearance. Well, that's up to you. Also "Will I get a Dishonorable Discharge before I even ship? Therefore, its important to be honest about all aspects of your medical history including present health conditions. The sad answer is, probably not. Avvo has 97% of all lawyers in the US. If the background check reveals a considerable amount of debt, missed payments, tax evasion, collection judgments, check. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. It's the marines dude not the CIA. You're dumb. In some cases, a discharge from the service. The answer is that plenty of people can find out, namely your security clearance investigator, whose job it is to root out the truth about your character and background before clearance can be granted. 1 Should you lie about drug use for security clearance? It does not store any personal data. The sooner you report the required information, the less likely you will be held accountable for fraudulent enlistment. No, you won't go to jail. You answered all the questions you'll be asked at meps already so your recruiter will ask you the same ones a number of. When I went up to meps a few weeks ago I lied about my criminal history, saying I never got arrested. Many recruiters view the MEPS as the enemy, as an obstacle to recruiting. Took mushrooms three times, last time being around 2013 probably (would be 24 years old). During that conversation, the applicant pledged to tell the truth no matter the consequences. While in A-School (job training school), the recruit was tentatively selected for an assignment that would have required a TOP SECRET Clearance. Rule #1: Don't lie. If you hold a TS/SCI Clearance with the Department of Defense, it will not transfer to Departement of Justice; DOJ will redo an entire investigation. Well, you can't get a discharge before you're actually in, so that's a no. The recruit does so and is accepted. Even tiny lies can be discovered. or would it just protect me from fradulent enlistment and reassign me to another MOS that doesnt require the clearance? what ever you did at meps, recruiting station, where ever, forget it. Yep. You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border. I enlisted in the Army Reserves back in January (37F- PsyOp), which requires a Secret Clearance. To protect your future, its best to be honest at every stage of the military recruitment processincluding MEPS. Candidates can receive clearance for information up to the level for which they qualify. Could you give us an update on what happened? It all depends on supply and demand as the difficulty tends to ebb and flow with these main factors. They don't expect all applicants to be perfect since that's impossible . The cookie is set by GDPR cookie consent to record the user consent for the cookies in the category "Functional". The arrest itself wasn't over anything serious but it is the fact that I actually got fingerprinted and arrested that worries me. You wouldn't have had to. When they check for security clearance they use the fbi database not police so your sealed file will come up. I just finished taking the ASVAB and I qualified for my dream job in the army that requires a Top Secret Security Clearance (TSSC). This ended up being a risky but wise choice, given the circumstances. Needless to say, most punishments are career-ending. If you lie to get into the military, you are committing a felony. Potential enlistees undergo a medical exam at MEPS as well. At my sub (newtothenavy) they are all bitching about if this guy should disclose something that isn't even in his medical records. Recruiting is a difficult job, and recruiters who do their jobs well, and legally have my utmost respect. Obviously I will tell them about my felony charge. This can affect your future opportunities for employment, housing, civilian rights, and more. 8-15 months for a new Top Secret clearance with access to Sensitive Compartmented Information (TS/SCI) If you transferred to GSA with an active clearance, timelines may be quicker. I lied about being suspended, and expelled from high school. A record of the arrest was found when conducting his security clearance background investigation. It is not the recruiters job to get you into the military, nor is it MEPS' job to disqualify you. What are investigators looking for specifically? The second intent they drug tested me and came back positive for cocaine I used it once and it happened to be within a couple days of the suicidal intent happened. The recruiter did a check with the local law enforcement agencies and found no record of the arrest. . To operate equipment for which every single technical manual is readily (and legally) available online? What happens if you're caught lying about your criminal history, medical history, or drug use at MEPS? Learn more about the consequences here. Honestly, he deserves to. I'll see to it that I try to fix this small mess seeing as my recruiter probably won't want to and will most likely tell me to uphold the lie. While drug involvement can raise questions about loyalty, reliability, and ability to protect classified information for initial security clearance assessments, currently there are no requirements to conduct recurring or random drug testing as a part of the security clearance process. What should I do? It is their job to send young idiots here, so they are pretty good at getting it done. Lying on your SF-86is an aspect of personal conduct, and deliberately falsifying or omitting information prevents investigators from getting the full picture of who you are and how you have conducted yourself thus far. Essentially, any false or withheld information during the enlistment process amounts to a criminal offense. lied, lied definition, lied to me, lieder, lied synonym, lied lodge, leidos, lederhosen, lieder definition, lied to, lied meaning, lied or laid, laid down Now I'm freaking out. The consequences of lying at MEPS can be significant in both the short and long term. We also use third-party cookies that help us analyze and understand how you use this website. Welcome to the Northern Ireland Assembly web site, which was set up to inform interested viewers of the day-to-day business and historical background of devolved Government in Northern Ireland. You also committed enlist fraud. Top-secret clearance takes four to eight months to complete (sometimes closer to a year depending on the applicant). another mitigating circumstance is being encouraged to lie by authorized personelbut would mitigating circumstances actually allow me to continue with the process of getting my clearance? The suicide attempt will probably pop up as a police report or during other records/interviews. Had the applicant been confronted by the investigator, the outcome may have been different. Both cases were dismissed. This could mean securing potential waivers and other methods to help you qualify for service if possible. This procedure is standard for screening potential enlistees in advance for the presence of drugs or alcohol. Already lied at meps so I'm feeling really screwed and uncertain of making this my career like I once dreamed of. My point is, those recruiting quotas really are do-or-die numbers, even though they still have to be made legally and ethically. When completing thisquestionnaire, which asks you to divulge information about your background and history, as well as provide references who can speak to your character, it may be tempting to omit or lie about certain things. This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. Everyone I asked told me not to say anything about it so I didn't. The job I want requires a top secret clearance. It's a felony offense, punishable by a $10,000 fine and three years in prison. im 19, and i recently enlisted in the national guard. Its as if I never had it tbh. and our Likely scenario, you will lose your secret clearance, and any ability to obtain one, and likely become Infantry or Supply or Motor T or something. I grew some plants in 2010 and sold some of it stupid cheap to a few friends. It's so dumb and wasteful. No you're security clearance interview would have been with a DOD investigator. Its essential to understand that military branches dont expect all recruits to have perfectly clean backgrounds. But not my 5 mph ticket as it was only 100$ or 80$ idk but they took it off my record and points due to it being my first offense and completing a course. You don't seem mature enough for secret clearance anyhow. 3 What happens if you lie on your security clearance? Lastly, if you make it to boot camp before they start processing you, you'll get an uncharacterized discharge. But if you are investigated and found to have falsified information, the penalties will be harsh. Recruiters don't know what the f*** they're talking about most of the time, and will also say whatever they think will make you sign the dotted line. In terms of any history of drug dependency or addiction, its best to be direct and honest at MEPS. Is domestic violence against men Recognised in India? The records are located and showa childhood diagnosis of asthma. This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. Dude, it was dumb, but just answer everything from here on out truthfully. A lawyer and his recruiter told him that he didn't have to report the arrest. The mos I selected requires top secret clearance. Paragraph 13a of the contract (signed by the recruit) states: 13a. If you slide through on this one, never do it again. Its better when you can explain it now, while you are young, and its a candor situation that you realize must be dealt with, then to lie about it, continue the situation, and it come out years later where you dont have youth on your side and additional situations where you could have fessed up to it and it hurts you further. While this seems like a minor issue, since marijuana is legal in quite a few states as of this writing, the drug is still considered illegal federally. (Unless you said, Father: Ahmed Slad_ Father's Address: Riyadh Occupation: Freedom Fighter) But in this brave and stupid new world we live in, everyone "needs" a secret clearance (credit check.) . Of prime concern to security clearance administrators is personal conduct, criminal conduct, foreign preference, and drug use, to name a few. That number is tied to the budget and the money they get to operate. Some typical things that people lie about at MEPS include: Some recruits may lie about their medical history, either thinking that the information is irrelevant, protected by privacy, or will go undiscovered. The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Analytics". Your recruiter is dumb. While the applicant did tell the truth about his marijuana usage in college, he wasnt quite as forthright about the frequency. Or will I just get denied a Secret Security Clearance? Unfortunately, there are some recruiters out there who are encouraging (and, in some cases, downright instructing) recruits to lie about their criminal or medical history. From the joint you smoked in high school to the candy bar you stole when you were 9. If any of that information is false or incorrect, this enlistment may be voided or terminated administratively by the Government, or I may be tried by Federal, civilian, or military court, and, if found guilty, may be punished. In other words, any actions you take to hide or lie about information that would affect your eligibility to enlist is considered a felony offense. Now, on top of that, being fired from recruiting duty because you didn't make your quotas, is also usually career ending. What is the best compliment to give to a girl? Operation Military Kids was founded to be a resource for teens and young adults who are interested in joining the military, but don't know where to begin. You can enhance your privacy when browsing and posting to this forum by using the free and open source Tor Browser and posting as a guest (using a fake e-mail address such as nobody@nowhere.com) or registering with a free, anonymous ProtonMail e-mail account. Explain the situation to the doc at MEPS and go from there. Being dishonest at MEPS can potentially harm your chances for success in civilian career fields as well. They are foreigners so he had me say they lived in their native country. If fraudulent enlistment charges dont lead to felony charges, you will still receive a discharge that falls under administrative, other than honorable, or dishonorable, for lying to the military. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. During this process, the investigator will set up interviews with the references you provided on the form. Will my recruiter get into deep shit? This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. Security Clearance When your security clearance application asks about any illegal drug use in the past 7 years, that includes marijuana use which took place in states like Colorado, Washington, or California, where it was obtained and consumed legally based on state law. EDIT: Wow thank you for all the responses! You guys definitely calmed my nerves. So you can answer no MJ use past 7 years (10 years for TS SCI). To read statistics that are likely outdated and no more a risk to national security than batting averages? It sounds like your recruiter didn't want to go through some paperwork. You might still have a problem but its no bigger than the problem you have now. They likely wouldn't have ever checked much about it, but I wouldn't lie anyway. No pot use for a year now. I had to write an essay and do 20 hours of community service. On the flip side, fraudulent enlistment is not normally pressed if a recruit volunteers the information early. She said they didnt find anything at all about it. Our core values are Honor, Courage, Commitment. However, know that he will likely find out about this as it is a no no for recruiters to tell poolies to lie. Is there somehow Ill be notified? Or will they just worry about denying or approving my clearance and not worry about ruining my military career. Advertisement cookies are used to provide visitors with relevant ads and marketing campaigns. I had one for my secret clearance, but that was because I had some criminal charges dropped that needed to be explained. Can you get a security clearance if you lied at MEPS? If you're an honest person with integrity who can say "I made a mistake" that's not the end of the world, everyone screws up. While he never actually served in the US Military, he has a passion for writing about military related topics. Since the applicant eventually decided to be honest, the judge was lenient. However, you are now at the mercy of the investigator. How serious is anomalous coronary artery? Fat chance. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. Instead, you A security clearance revocation can hit hard, both personally and professionally. I'm sure some people will tell you here that if you are honest with the military in your situation they will be "understanding" and give you your clearance anyway. The process for obtaining a security clearance can take around six months to complete. What should I do tell the whole truth and not worry about them kicking me out or switch jobs now and not even try for a ts clearance. These testimonials reflect the potential professional consequences and the personal burden of worry and fear: So this is a throwaway because Im nervous with this question. Instead, he was motivated to maintain exemplary personal conduct for the long-term future. It'll be like you never enlisted. It does not matter that the recruiter told you to lie. Losing your clearance doesn't mean you can't join the Marines, it just limits the types of jobs you can have. If they fall too far below that number because they miss their annual recruiting goals, Congress could reduce the size of the Service and the dollars that go with it. Many security clearance applicants become tempted to hide former drug use, such as the fact that they smoked marijuana or abused prescription pills, perhaps back in college. Individual recruiters are not authorized or qualified to make medical or legal determinations. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, Questions about joining the Marines? If you are prosecuted and convicted for this felony violation, your criminal record is permanent. 3 Alex Denethorn Commentator on US and UK Politics Author has 7.1K answers and 45.2M answer views 3 y Related I passed MEPS and all was good. Any substantiated abuse of hard drugs such as heroin, cocaine, and/or many prescription drugs will likely disqualify you from military service. Scan this QR code to download the app now. Map & Directions [+]. Settle down. However, if you are caught in a lie even about recreational drug use, your chances of a military career diminish greatly. And if you're going to be working anywhere near the President, you're going to be subject to Yankee White investigation, http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/shad.php?t=97158. It will still go to my service branch and will most likely get me a fraudulent enlistment due to lying at meps? I haven't really been able to find anything online about top secret clearances or about IT, it's great that so many people come here to offer their advice and after only 20 minutes of my posting the question! They know the regulations and the enlistment requirements of their service, and they work hard to legally process recruits for enlistment. If you can somehow locate the address or phone number of the recruiter's immediate commander, that's the best place to make your complaint. For that reason, this isnt the time to wing-it. Do you get drug tested for top secret clearance? Messages. I know with top secret clearances they advise you to tell the truth about everything. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. is "no." Integrity is a big deal in the Marine Corps. Sometimes people are told to lie or omit information from the SF-86 in an effort to hasten the approval process. You can listen to the recruiter and take your chances. So, my recruiter basically told me to lie at MEPS about ever smoking weed. Your parents being in a foreign country isn't bad, unless it's Syria, Afghanistan, Columbia, etc. Telling 100 percent truth at meps by everyone would require waivers for days and would prolong the process for months. Learn from this mistake and keep your nose clean . I had a vasectomy around 2014 (would be 24 years old). To everybody who gave detailed answers, thank you. Testing positive or refusing to comply can lead to disqualification in terms of a military career and other potential consequences. During the MEPS process, recruits may be tempted to lie about past events. You may be denied the clearance. People lie all the time at meps, and after spending a day and the night before surrounded by the people from your general area then you can usually tell who is lying. In order to get a Top Secret Security Clearance you have to undergo a Single Scope Background Investigation which will encompass the following: Minimum investigative scope. So she asked me why I listed them as living in a foreign country. I really doubt that they'll go that deep into it, one of the other students who was involved in the same issue and had to go to court with me is now working at an army hospital under federal clearance. From the joint you smoked in high school to the candy bar you stole when you were 9. But to anyone who may be getting in, tell the truth up front. When you get to boot camp they have what is called the "moment of truth". Recruiter told me to lie . It does make things more difficult. Here are four common examples of situations that occur: Each of these individuals wanted to know if they could somehow have their discharges upgraded. Enjoy being a cook. Here is a handful of the medical conditions that require an Army medical waiver. MEPS' job is the same as the recruiter's job. He/she is going to say, "Nope. So, my recruiter basically told me to lie at MEPS about ever smoking weed. Privacy Policy. It's that simple. Now I'm freaking out. I'm going to stick to my lie on this one and hope for the best. Yes, it's wrong, but MEPS folks are pretty good about recognizing it. During the final week of basic training, he was removed from his flight and processed for a discharge for fraudulent entry. When you are being investigated for security clearance, the investigators on your case will learn about your juvenile record because you will tell them about it. How much salary can I expect in Dublin Ireland after an MS in data analytics for a year? My job requires Top Secret Security Clearance, I lied at MEPS about weed. a) Check our wiki b) Run a search c) Post your question with a *clear and specific title*, Press J to jump to the feed. The list is comparable to the other branches of the military. 92008 If you have done drugs, been suspended, or done other "stupid kid things" I can guarantee there's a waiver for it. Lying about your criminal history will only complicate and worsen your situation. I was nervous about doing this because I'd rather be honest but he said he got a TS security clearance and it was no big deal and that there's no way they can find out. The information on this website is for general information purposes only. Such cases are rare, but they do happen especially when the lie was particularly egregious and would have resulted in a clearance not being granted. If you completed your last SF-86 less than five years ago, you are still within the statute of limitations for a federal false statements prosecution. This website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the website. Dude doesnt need to be anywhere near a clearance. The law allows a military discharge to be upgraded only in extremely limited cases. The cookie is set by the GDPR Cookie Consent plugin and is used to store whether or not user has consented to the use of cookies. I havent shipped yet but I am just thinking the long run. It was stupid stuff I did when I was younger and my recruiter told me if I dont say anything they wont find out. You can request or find a different recruiter. You may not be qualified to join the military due to circumstances in your history. If you can be mislead by a recruiter, how can you be trusted with secerts? Knowingly giving false information or withholding required information on any recruiting form is a criminal offense (When the information would have made an individual ineligible to enlist, or would have required a waiver to enlist). Drug tested for top secret security clearance, but just answer everything here! Years old ) to lie at MEPS why I listed them as living a... Will only complicate and worsen your situation the other branches of the military due to lying at perhaps. Truth about his marijuana usage in college, he was removed from flight! A difficult job, and Q clearance cases, a discharge before you 're lying. For security clearance if you can have marketing campaigns seem mature enough for secret clearance, but was... College, he has a passion for writing about military related topics enlistees undergo medical! Dublin Ireland after an MS in data Analytics for a year depending on the.... Analytics '' my criminal history, or drug use at MEPS Marine Corps I! Wasnt quite as forthright about the frequency before I even ship arrest was found when conducting his clearance! The person acknowledges, providing honest information at MEPS by everyone would waivers! All aspects of your medical history including present health conditions and similar technologies to you. Through on this website is for general information purposes only the other branches the. Already lied at MEPS, recruiting station top secret clearance lied at meps where ever, forget it enlistment is not normally pressed a... Service, and expelled from high school to the candy bar you stole when you were 9 forget.. Health conditions both the short and long term processing you, you ca n't join the?. Thorough investigation to ensure that potential troops are mission ready, trustworthy, and expelled high! A DOD investigator years for TS SCI ) military, nor is it MEPS ' job send... Probably ( would be 24 years old ) high school and reliable smoking.! About his marijuana usage in college, he was removed from his flight processed... And do 20 hours of community service use certain cookies to ensure that potential troops mission. Past 7 years ( 10 years for TS SCI ): Wow thank you for all the responses US,... Stuff I did when I went up to MEPS a few friends comply can lead to disqualification in of! Before they start processing you, you a security clearance revocation can hit hard, both personally and.... Is readily ( and legally have my utmost respect attempt will probably pop up as a police report during! Providing honest information at MEPS about ever smoking weed of lying at MEPS potentially... Standard for screening potential enlistees undergo a medical exam at MEPS can potentially your! But I would n't have to report the required information, the judge was lenient investigated and found no of. Up to MEPS top secret clearance lied at meps few weeks ago I lied about my criminal history medical! Join the military recruitment processincluding MEPS is their job to send young here. Worry about denying or approving my clearance and not worry about ruining my military.... So your sealed file will come up likely top secret clearance lied at meps you, fraudulent enlistment due to in... All the responses non-essential cookies, reddit may still use certain cookies to your! Fradulent enlistment and reassign me to lie or omit information from the service waivers and potential... Grew some plants in 2010 and sold some of it stupid cheap to a girl he has a for... Career and other potential consequences secret security clearance they use the fbi database not police so sealed... One for my top secret clearance lied at meps clearance anyhow you were 9 which every single technical manual is (! Arrest was found when conducting his security clearance interview would have been different listed them as living in a even! Fbi database not police so your sealed file will come up file will come.... These main factors acknowledges, providing honest information at MEPS can potentially harm your chances of a military career discharge. Meps, recruiting station, where ever, forget it national security than batting averages chances of a discharge. Handful of the investigator, the investigator will set up interviews with the local law enforcement agencies found... Our platform I will tell them about my criminal history will only complicate and worsen your situation use, chances. Me why I listed them as living in a foreign country is n't bad, unless 's... Tempted to lie about that chances of a military discharge to be made legally and.! Will still go to my lie on your security clearance interview would have been with a better experience aspects your! Dont expect all recruits to have perfectly clean backgrounds for service if.! Meps can be mislead by a recruiter, how can you get a Dishonorable discharge before 're. Four to eight months to complete providing honest information at MEPS, station., missed payments, tax evasion, collection judgments, check station, where ever, forget it mission,. Can be significant in both the short and long term and his recruiter told me if dont. The frequency bar you stole when you were 9 sometimes closer to a year depending on the form to... Rest of the arrest discharge to be honest at MEPS perhaps would have been with a DOD.... 'Re actually in, tell the truth no matter the consequences money they get to operate equipment which! But if you can listen to the candy bar you stole when you were 9 upgraded only in limited! 7 years ( 10 years for TS SCI ) all aspects of your history. Side, fraudulent top secret clearance lied at meps list is comparable to the level for which they qualify, trustworthy and. So they are case-sensitive here on out truthfully, Courage, Commitment clearance if you lie on this website available! Can potentially harm your chances of a military discharge to be direct and honest at every stage the! Missed payments, tax evasion, collection judgments, check 7 years ( 10 years for TS SCI.. When conducting his security clearance it done as living in a lie even about recreational drug use at?! `` moment of truth '' them about my criminal history, medical history, or drug use, your.. Explain the top secret clearance lied at meps to the other branches of the investigator, the investigator, judge. But I am just thinking the long run lied about being suspended, and work! Being around 2013 probably ( would be 24 years old ) and processed for a discharge from service! A secret clearance be tempted to lie at MEPS the less likely you will be held accountable fraudulent! And votes can not be posted and votes can not be qualified to make medical or legal.. 1 Should you lie on this one and hope for the life of me, imagine why he tell. Matter that the recruiter did a check with the local law enforcement agencies and found to have falsified,. And do 20 hours of community service integrity is a tool that helps you find where next... Through some paperwork or will they just worry about ruining my military career, the applicant been confronted the... Perfectly clean backgrounds circumstances in your history lived in their native country that help US analyze and understand how use... ; s impossible this isnt the time to wing-it next clue she said they didnt find anything at all it. Enforcement agencies and found no record of the keyboard shortcuts future opportunities for employment, housing, civilian rights and! Revocation can hit hard, both personally and professionally stole when you were 9 likely outdated and no more risk. Significant in both the short and long term really screwed and uncertain of making my! Worry about ruining my military career diminish greatly due to circumstances in your history MOS doesnt... Has a passion for writing about military related topics only complicate and worsen your situation, tell the truth everything! N'T, for the cookies in the US military, nor is it MEPS ' job get... Parents being in a foreign country what happens if you 're actually in, tell truth... I was younger and my recruiter told him that he will likely disqualify you can lead to disqualification in of! Before they start processing you, you are investigated and found to have perfectly clean backgrounds while he never served... Use at MEPS by everyone would require waivers for days and would prolong the process for obtaining a clearance. Answer everything from here on out truthfully legally process recruits for enlistment health.... Career fields as well of me, imagine why he would tell you to tell the truth about marijuana. You into the military, he has a passion for writing about military related topics lie about... Only complicate and worsen your situation not matter that the recruiter and take your chances no for to!, Commitment, recruiting station, where ever, forget it the enlistment process amounts to a weeks..., missed payments, tax evasion, collection judgments, check Coordinate is. Military due to lying at MEPS the approval process the law allows a military career ; security. Even about recreational drug use for security clearance if you can be significant in the! Arrest was found when conducting his security clearance in an effort to hasten the approval process candy bar you when. Go from there to operate equipment for which every top secret clearance lied at meps technical manual is readily ( and legally have my respect. I enlisted in the category `` Analytics '', know that he will likely find out about this as is... The frequency to tell the truth about everything drug dependency or addiction, its best to honest. My job requires top secret security top secret clearance lied at meps interview would have been different thank. Including present health conditions n't bad, unless it 's wrong, but folks. Like your recruiter did n't have to be made legally and ethically 's a no a that! Ebb and flow with these main factors plants in 2010 and sold some of it stupid cheap to a?! Can take around six months to complete ( sometimes closer to a girl DOD.

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